A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
Wikipedia is one of the latest institutions to face threats from the Trump administration. White House officials and Republicans in Congress are targeting the site over what they call a liberal bias. NPR's Bobby Allyn sat down with Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales to talk about how the site plans to weather the attacks.
BOBBY ALLYN, BYLINE: Jimmy Wales wants fewer distractions.
JIMMY WALES: I took Twitter off my phone. I can't even call it X. But it's addictive. And if I'm in a car or I'm in a line somewhere, you end up looking at it, and then you feel a need to argue with some idiot. It's not really healthy.
ALLYN: Wales was born in Alabama, was a dot-com tech entrepreneur and is now the chair emeritus of Wikipedia's charity from his home in London. He's trying to cut back on screen time because his phone has been pinging a lot. Why? There's a right-wing campaign against Wikipedia, the site Wales founded nearly 25 years ago.
(SOUNDBITE OF MONTAGE)
TIM POOL: I used to be a big fan of Wikipedia, but it was taken over by political interests, and now it's utter nonsense.
ALEX JONES: It's kind of a main war zone in the censorship battle.
TUCKER CARLSON: Wikipedia shapes America. And because of its importance, it's an emergency, in my opinion.
ALLYN: That was Tim Pool, Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson. Complaints like these from right-wing podcasters now have the government on their side. The Trump administration has threatened to revoke the tax-exempt status of Wikipedia's nonprofit. The Republican-led House Oversight Committee has launched an investigation into bias on Wikipedia. And, of course, Elon Musk. Here's Wales.
WALES: The day Elon tweeted, defund Wikipedia, we raised a few million that day because people are like, oh, come on, Elon. That's ridiculous. You know, I think I will donate now that you mention it.
ALLYN: Musk has had such a problem with Wikipedia that he recently launched Grokipedia, an AI-generated clone of Wikipedia that Musk says will tell the whole truth. Wales isn't too worried about it. He points to one entry that has annoyed Musk - the Wikipedia article on his straight-arm gesture that resembled a Nazi salute.
WALES: The fact that he did it, not in question. The fact there was a lot of commentary about it, and the fact that he denied that it meant that. That's all. That's the whole story. It's in Wikipedia.
ALLYN: Musk used the entry to rally opposition against the site.
WALES: And he was mad that it was in Wikipedia, but I'm like, you know, we didn't say you were a Nazi. Like, this is a piece of history. And if you regret that it happened, then maybe don't do that again.
ALLYN: Musk didn't return requests for comment. Unlike social media sites, Wikipedia's rules aren't determined by Wales or Wikipedia as an institution. Instead, thousands of volunteer editors come up with content guidelines, and they police the site themselves. Ryan McGrady researches Wikipedia at the University of Massachusetts Amherst and is a longtime Wikipedia editor. He says it's a bit weird to see attacks against the site since it merely summarizes news articles, academic studies and scientific research.
RYAN MCGRADY: But at the same time, it makes perfect sense because if you're seeing all of its sources as biased, you're going to see Wikipedia as biased. And so it would make sense to try to see it as a big, shiny target.
ALLYN: Wales concedes that some Wikipedia entries need real work.
WALES: I could sort of go out to the world and say, no, Wikipedia's perfect, and it's great, and we're really neutral. And if you don't like it, that's just because you're biased. No. I actually say, you know what? Yeah. Actually, we need help. Like, come and help us.
ALLYN: Wales says the politics of Wikipedia editors are varied. He does want to recruit more conservatives to help edit the site, though. But on certain issues, he is not going to budge, like on Wikipedia's sources. Conservatives have attacked Wikipedia for not citing Fox News as political coverage and for placing Breitbart News on a blacklist. Wales says sources have to earn their credibility.
WALES: You'd look into it and you're like, yeah, sorry. Like, the fact that we prefer the New England Journal of Medicine to tabloid newspapers for our medical coverage, I'm not apologizing for that.
ALLYN: Wales is now promoting his new book on how Wikipedia went from an online encyclopedia many thought would not survive to a site that receives billions of views a month around the world. He says it boils down to trusting people, not being tied to corporate interests and being transparent. For instance, anyone can see the entire editing history of any Wikipedia article, and anyone can edit. But if a billionaire like Elon Musk wants Wikipedia to take down an entry, well, they're out of luck.
WALES: Somebody said to me the other day, you know, you may not be the richest man in the world, Jimmy, but you do get to live rent-free in his head.
ALLYN: Now, Musk's straight-arm salute? That does not have an entry on Musk's own Grokipedia.
Bobby Allyn, NPR News.
MARTÍNEZ: And we'll note that NPR's CEO Katherine Maher is a former CEO of the Wikimedia Foundation. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
